(no subject)

[turps]

I was just reading through Boxes at my site as digital_diva pointed out typos at the same time. The problem is there shouldn't be any. I had it beta read by a few different people which suggests it's me who screwed up. My question is, how do you use a beta reading? For example, I read from the beta read file and change it on my original one. Obviously that's not fool proof or there wouldn't be any typos at all. So how do you do it? Learn me so I don't make embarrassing mistakes again.

Also, do you ever read something and know it could be more? I still love Boxes but think it could be better. It could be made richer I guess. So does anyone want to teach me how to work on a really long story and stop being so impatient? It's what I want to do next, write something long and detailed. Spin out a story that captures the interest and keeps it.

So yeah, I know I can't really be taught patience, that has to come on its own but I'd love to know about how you approach beta reading.

Comments

[dreamtrance.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

just saying hi :)

[digital-diva.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it be easier to just use the beta read file instead of correcting your copy? I don't know. I've only ever had someone beta for me over AIM. ahahahaha

[turps33.livejournal.com]

Hi, honey.

It seems like ages since we touched base!

*squeezes you tight*

[turps33.livejournal.com]

See I've been told that before but the problem is I have more than one beta reader. Interlock usually sees everything before anyone else gets to see it. That way she's the only one to see the really embarrassing mistakes ;) But after that I send it to anyone who can help and end up with a few copies. So which one do I use?

I fail at beta 101....sigh.

Aren't you supposed to be cooking right now? ;)

[dreamtrance.livejournal.com]

I know! I need to email you

[autumnyte.livejournal.com]

I have a somewhat bizarre betaing method that I use...but a friend taught it to me and I find it works well.

I usually ask my betas to mark their changes using the "track changes" feature of Microsoft Word. Then, when I get the betas back, I can clearly see all the red marks.

I make a duplicate copy of my original, unbetaed file. Then I start with the least detailed beta and move to the most comprehensive one, making changes to my original document. Tired yet? ;-)

Then, using track changes, I compare my modified document to the copy of the unbetaed document to make sure that all the changes made are ones I actually wanted to make. (Then I send it back to one of my betas for a final proofread, to catch any stray typos.)

It sounds more tedious than it actually is.

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

Ok, when I have something I need beta work done on, I have 2 people I send things to anyway, one then the other. After the first has made her mark all over it, I make the changes she suggested (or not - depending on the suggestion) and then send it to the next so she gets a clean file. Then repeat as often as necessary.

I also don't post immediately after making those changes. I've found if I wait 24 hours (minimum) and then reread it, sometimes I may end up making mroe changes - including adding thigs in or taking things out, etc.

Then I start all over again. I even have one fic that I did a couple of years ago that we literally picked apart sentence by sentence because I wanted it PERFECT.

Hope that helps!

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

Thats a good idea! Usually when I put on my beta cap, I just make notes in a different font color...

[castalie.livejournal.com]

I actually make the changes on the New Version, ie the one the beta sent me. That way, I'm sure I won't forget typos and such on the Original Copy cause I just know I would do that.

And if I could teach you how to write a long story, I guess it would mean I actually know how to do those, right? Yeah, that's what I thought. Can't help you, then, sorry *sigh*

Then again, isn't your Boxes series - which I love so.very.much - quite long already?

[ihearthings-ii.livejournal.com]

gaby ( aka_cadence ) is my usual beta, and when I get a file back from her, I save it, and make the changes in that one. I suspect it's kind if anal ( teehee ) but I quite like having both the before/after files saved, so I can see my 'original' idea if the fic gets away from me.
as for patience, I can't help you. I can't write anything over 7 pages.

[topaz119.livejournal.com]

I tech write for a living, so I do betas the way I do edits. First, I really like to see all of them together, so that if one person has an issue with something that the others didn't, I can weigh the reactions. (This is for non-grammar type changes. For the grammar issues, I have one person I rely on heavily. If she says it's ok, it's ok.) Anyway, I ask my betas to do track changes or Comments in Word, or to use [] brackets so I can search for them. And then, I just go through a paragraph at a time and see what's what.

And then I tweak madly right up until I post, and then A usually emails me and tells me what egregious thing I missed anyway. =)

As for long stories, I think the layered approach works best for me. Get things down and then go back over it and see what's missing. That's worked for me in other fandoms; I've yet to get something really long done here in the pop world (except for the crackfic co-written with A, which refuses to die, and may actually get posted at some point in time.)

[iconis.livejournal.com]

For example, I read from the beta read file and change it on my original one.

I do it like that, too, and yeah, it's not foolproof, but it works well most of the time. I don't know - maybe it'd help to run the fic through the betas for one last glance, or something.

I hear you on the long and detailed thing. It's so annoying, to have these little pieces of a world you yourself, at least, find fascinating, and not having the patience or the attention span to build the world properly into a long fic. That's why I'll never be a professional writer.

[turps33.livejournal.com]

I use the track feature too, they're great.

It actually doesn't sound that tedious at all. Especially having that unbetaed copy to contrast with. I'm going to use that for sure.

Those suggestions are very helpful.

Thank you.

[turps33.livejournal.com]

That's a good idea too. To only send to the next beta when you've done the changes from the one before.

Waiting is what I find difficult and what I'm working on changing. When I have a completed story I want to post it now and that's not a good thing at all.

It helped a lot, thank you!

[turps33.livejournal.com]

I'm getting the feeling that I'm going wrong by making changes on the original copy. It's always the simplist things that trip you up...sigh,

But you do do long. Well maybe not long long but I know you can write long. I've seen you do it.

I love that you love Boxes, Have I told you that? *g* It ended up around 29,000 words but I really want to go longer than that. I just don't know if I can.

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the waiting is hard. I literally have to force myself to close the file and wait. Do something else, etc.

Good luck!

[turps33.livejournal.com]

It seems I've been making the basic mistake of changing things on the original file. Typical that I find that out now after so long.

I wish you could learn patience. Most of my stories lately have been sticking around 7000/9000 words and it's frustrating. I know I have a long story in my head but I just can't seem to find it.

[trumpeterofdoom.livejournal.com]

I don't write much, but my two longest stories were for challenges. This was bad, because I felt like I'd shortchanged the story ideas in the rush to make the deadline. I know it's possible to send it in late, but I know if I don't make the deadline, then the story never ever gets published.

As for betaing, well. For my Honey story I had about four betas, all of whom were sent my rough copy of the story, and they corrected it as they saw fit. Then I open up my original one, go through each beta painstakingly (so I went through the story 4 times in total), tweaking as the betas saw fit. At each and every correction I stand back and consider it grammatically and contextually. If it didn't feel right to me I just left it as is and continued. Then after I was done tweaking I sent it to one more beta, to make sure the story made sense after everything. Extremely tedious if you've got a 20,000 over word story, I can tell you.

[turps33.livejournal.com]

I'm getting so many good tips, I should have asked ages ago.

I like the idea of looking at all the betas together, doing that would eliminate changing things then changing them again with each different beta. It seems so obvious when it's pointed out like this.

I like the idea of the layered approach too. I think it's the going back part that I'm failing at right now.

Thank you so much for the suggestions. They're really helping.

[turps33.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it usually works well for me too but I was horrified to see those typos.

I could never be a professional writer either. I hear you about not having patience. It sucks but it's something I'm trying to overcome because I really do want to write long.

[patchworkdragon.livejournal.com]

I try to have people reading the long ones at an early stage, so I can get the characterzation and actual writing stuff fixed then. I'll fix any grammar/spelling pointed out at that phase, but it's not what I'm working on. The grammar/spelling is the last part, and usually I try to send it to just one person at a time. I use track changes and go through accepting or rejecting before I send it to a second person.
For the one I'm working on now, this is the first time I've had a RL friend who can beta. I print the word doc, bring it to her, and she writes all over it. We sat in her office with the door shut to discuss it - like a real meeting.

[crownzeal.livejournal.com]

I feedback and beta at the same time withing the author's word document. I add my comments and hightlight any text in red that needs correction.

Seems to work well!

[nopseud]

I change the original document too, when I'm editing (or, rather, I save a copy first so I have something to go back to if everything bollocks up).

If I get comments via e-mail, then I reply to the mail and keep the reply open as I go through it, deleting the betas comments if I either put them it or decide not to use them, or commenting in the mail if I want to clarify something. If I get a commented-on file rather than an e-mail, then I do the same thing -- save another copy of the beta file and go through it line by line, deleting the copy of the beta file as I make each of the changes in the master file. However, probably because I only deal in .txt files, I tend to get e-mail rather than annotated files.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm horrible to beta for, because I can't stop fiddling and editing, and sending changed bits to my poor betas.

So does anyone want to teach me how to work on a really long story and stop being so impatient?

Heh. If I'd found a good way of teaching patience, I'd be running seminars and making myself a rich woman :-)

I guess one thing is to try to break the link between 'finishing' and posting. When I finish a story, in the sense of having the whole plot there, and all the scenes, and the story reading from beginning to end with no missing bits, then it feels more like reaching the half-way point then completing anything. Sure, I now know the story *can* be done, but I usually expect to spend as much, or even more, time rewriting and editing then I did writing in the first place. (Which had a lot to do with how I write, and I know some people do much more pre-planning and much less rewriting.)

I rarely post stuff as soon as I finish it. Sometimes I'll post a very short snippet (max of 1000 words, say) pretty soon after it's done. Usually I sit on even a short one for at least a few days, rereading and editing occasionally. Sometimes it's much longer before I decide that something it ready to go out. This is one reason I rarely take part in challenges, and when I do I always try and get the story done at least a month before the deadline, so I have enough time for it to mature.

With no deadline, I can end up waiting a while. Get Your Money's Worth hung around for months until eponymous helped me beat it into shape. I didn't finish A Fairytale of New York in time for Christmas 2003, so I posted it in Dec 2004 instead. I still have the rentboy!Justin story sitting on my hard disk because although it's sort-of done, I'm only 90% happy with it -- I wrote the first sections of that in October 2003, and I've been working on it on-and-off ever since.

So, anyway, I suppose the moral of all that is: things aren't really complete until you're 100% happy with them and know they're as good as you can get them. Anything else which looks like 'complete' is an optical illusion.

[ninjetti75.livejournal.com]

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, Boxes!


You know I love that story SO much, Terri. I'm pretty sure it's my favorite of yours. I'd LOVE to see more of the prequel & sequel!


And, um, sorry I can't really help with the writing thing. Which you know is driving me absolutely batshit!crazy, 'cuz I LOVE to help people write, but I'm afraid I'm idea guy. Or spelling guy, or Americanization guy, or grammar guy, but the actual beta-process? I just, um, re-read and tweak. A Lot "". And I have =NO= clue what to tell you about long stories, 'cuz... ..it's just how I think. How my stories write themselves. They're ALWAYS longer than I originally thought they'd be, and you know I could probably make them even longer if I chose/wanted to. But I'm not really sure HOW that happens, or if I could put it into words for you even if I was.

But I do wish you ALL the Good Luck in the world in your efforts! I *K*N*O*W* you can do it, that you've got a great, long story in you, and am here for you all the way until you're satisfied with it!!!

[turps33.livejournal.com]

I know you do, so thank you! Your support is always awesome.

You're also great when you help me with beta reading, so don't worry about that, and I get what you mean about the long story stuff. In that you can't say 'how' you do it. I'm just frustrated that all my stuff seems to be around the 8000 word mark lately. Though I suspect that could be because I'm doing challenges that have a limited time. I don't know.

I'll keep trying for that long story, it'll come out one day ;)

Thanks, honey. You're the best!

[turps33.livejournal.com]

Deleting the betas comments sounds like a good thing to do. Really I wish I'd asked this stuff ages ago as some of the suggestions makes so much sense.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm horrible to beta for, because I can't stop fiddling and editing, and sending changed bits to my poor betas.

Okay, a question. When you're wearing your beta hat are you okay with getting a file over and over? Because I always worry that I'm being annoying and taking up too much time. I also know if A saw this ( with her being my main beta and all she'd tell me not to be silly, but I can't help worrying )

Heh. If I'd found a good way of teaching patience, I'd be running seminars and making myself a rich woman :-)

Yeah, I figured that *g* But hey, if you ever find out I'll be first in line for a place at that seminar.

I guess one thing is to try to break the link between 'finishing' and posting.

And right there you have my problem. I do very little planning when I write, I just do it and see where it goes. Then when the story is done I'll get it beta read, change things then post. Which is the wrong thing to do I know.

I'm honestly in awe that you can keep stories on your HD so long. Everything you say makes a huge amount of sense though and I really hope I can take some of that on board.

Thanks so much for answering.

[turps33.livejournal.com]

That's what I do too. It's just that small mistakes still seem to slip through. I'm thinking that may be me being careless though. I wouldn't be surprised at that at all.

Thanks for answering :)

[turps33.livejournal.com]

Thanks for sharing that.

Especially sending a story out one person at a time. That makes so much sense and I can't believe I didn't think of it before.

Discussing stories with a RL friend sounds so cool. The closest I got to doing that was doing a beta over AIM which was a really good thing to do.

Again, thanks for answering.

[turps33.livejournal.com]

I'd love to see your Honey story expanded. Which is totally random so sorry *g*

I get what you mean about rushing for challenges though. All my last stories have been challenges which is part of the reason I'm stuck on the 8,000 word short story range. I really need to change that and write something without a deadline.

Beta reading is tedious I agree. At least the nit picking details are. I quite like when you add things and change scenes around.

Thanks so much for answering!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_bettina_/]

I feel like repeating all the others in this thread ;-), but most of my betas so far, used the "track changes" thing in word and I really love that. It's also great for comments throughout the story, for what worked and what didn't. I usually change the file my beta sent me, I make the changes, and then send it back to my beta for another read through and so on until I feel it's the best I can do.

I think missing a few things is just the way it is. Even when you read through a file twenty times you can still find a couple typos somewhere in there.

Also, do you ever read something and know it could be more?

All the time with my stories. That's the reason I rarely reread my own stuff, because I get angry and embarrassed ;-).

why not my 2 cents?

[originalrahrah.livejournal.com]

cried over 'boxes' again. maybe cause i live in nyc and it's so relevant. i buy coffee for the homeless guy and i've shared my egg sandwich with the shopping cart lady. anyway, re: the beta thing. an idea forms, i write and then i leave it alone for a while. i come back to slice and dice. my beta does very little spelling and grammar check but she does question the characters and the thought processes. sometimes i'll expand on a character or a situation. i guess i just assume the reader will know what i meant. for instance, in 'boxes', my beta would have wanted to know more about jc from his point of view. why is sally nice to them? maybe someone in the e.r. is really nasty and insulting. it's a long process but i'm learning from others. oh, and i won't send her anymore rough drafts because she will hound me to finish. it doesn't always work. thanks, bon!

[nopseud]

When you're wearing your beta hat are you okay with getting a file over and over?

Yep. But then, I love betaing, and usually I'm willing to keep rereading long after the author is willing to keep rewriting. :-)

Something that...not annoys me, but frustrates me, is people who run right up to the deadline with challenge stories. In the last few days before DWNOGA2004 I did a lot of betaing. And the *night* before, I was up until four in the morning betaing for four or five different people, some of whom were still writing the story for the first time. In a way, it was great fun, and the adrenaline from poinging between stories, trying to pinpoint what could be done in the remaining time, was a rush. However, as a beta, it was also incredibly frustrating because the stories could be so much better with more time spent on them.

(Of course, lots of people have very good reasons why they get pushed up to the deadline on challenges, and I completely understand RL taking priority. That doesn't change the outcome from a writing pov, though.)

I do very little planning when I write, I just do it and see where it goes.

That's exactly how I write too :-)

Maybe you could make a rule and try and stick to it, like leaving the story for at least a fortnight after you've decided that it's completely and finally finished, then rereading it and only posting it if there's absolutely nothing you think can be done better in it. (That's what I do on a more extended timeframe -- I don't post until I can reread the story and not find anything I want to do differently or don't quite like.)

Also, there's nothing actually stopping you going back to Boxes and rewriting it. I change stuff all the time -- a couple of months ago I rewrote a scene in The Wedding Cake Theory.

[ephemera.livejournal.com]

You ask really damn good questions! I've been reading the comments with interest.

I always used to work with the original 'master' file, copying the corrections over from whatever I got back - and if I get fb in emails or comments that's still how I work.

Working with the TP ladies, I got introduced to Word's Track Changes feature, and when you're working with one person [or one person at a time] I find that excellent - I'll take the edited file and work through accepting / rejecting / tweaking / adding, which means I won't miss things that they've noticed, and I still have the original [or version 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 in sopme cases] file in case, as someone else mentioned, thigs go totaly pear shaped and you want to go back to basics.]

The only thing that I can't handle, and I don't know if it's a dyslexia thing or a control freak thing, or actually totaly reasonable, is people who edit by making changed but not telling you what they are. And yes, if you spotted me typing 'we;re' changing it to 'we're' is obviously correct and you don;t need my 'permission', but damnit I want to *know*, and I had someone do that to me when I had the story with two people, and I swear my brain just shut down in protest.

Multiple files over and over - bring it on! As many revisions as it takes, you know? Maybe flag up which sections you've worked on so the editor knows where to focus, but I have no problem reading and editing the same story ten times over. I'm not the best proof reader in the world by a long shot, but I do actually like the editing / beta *process*, so I'm easy.

There's also the fact that people *will* miss typos. The odd one makes it into printed books that have been signed off by the original editor, the author, and at least two professional proof readers. [and the Tp stuff goes from the author to the editor to a final proof before press]

I like your habit of posting a final draft in a locked post after we've been through the word file, as changing the layout often helps me read something with clearer eyes and catch more little things - I do that with my things, and my TP editing, in fact, in locked posts, or switching fonts etc.

There's really nothing stopping you from re-working the current incarnation of Boxes as you add to it, you know. Hell, I'm still working on Pumas, and I'm almost certainly going to tweak the existing scenes a little as I go.

Nice supportive 'preview' readers are, I think, the key to breaking the write / post loop, if you want to do that. I never feel like I've done with soemthing until someone's read it, which is how come you and A keep getting the 'day files' on things that I'm not posting as I go ;) - C and L generally get those for the originals, and I had 5 or 6 volunteers to cheerlead the Bears story, which was vital for me. I aspire to one day be the totaly self supporting kind of author who can do all that in their own head and not need an external mirror, but untill I discover that really I'm pissing them off, I'm very happy to have a small 'writers cirlce' who get to see the rough drafts and deleted scenes and aborted dead ends as well as the finished stuff.

I'm still going back and making small changes to stories I posted two years back, if something prompts me to go back and re-read and I see them, and I love people who point them out to me so I *can* fix them. Crit makes me happy ;)

*snuggles*

*snuggles some more*

Once again, I'm all about process, aren't I?

[ephemera.livejournal.com]

This would be a good moment for another thank you - you're a total *dream* of an editor, you know? The fact that you actually enjoy it is probably a factor ;)

[and also a cue to go back to the re-reading ahead of the re-writing and more-writing ;p]

[nopseud]

This would be a good moment for another thank you

Heh. While I was typing the comment, I was thinking 'I hope I don't upset anyone with this'. But -- I know that you know that fantastic as it is, the puma story would've been even better with more time. And will be better, in its glorious extended form!

[and also a cue to go back to the re-reading ahead of the re-writing and more-writing ;p]

{poke, poke} Go! :-)

I was pasting all the bits I have together into a single file this morning, sighing wistfully. I eagerly await more bits to paste in!

[turps33.livejournal.com]

The comments really are interesting and I've picked up some good tips for next time. I felt awful when Eva pointed out those typos. Not so much for me but you and the others who helped because I know it was me that screwed up.

I really like track changes and am going to try what you said next time, that is changing things on that file but have the master file saved somewhere safe just in case.

I'm relieved that you like the beta process. The problem I have is I always think I'm taking too much time, especially yours as you're always my primary beta reader. I know how busy you are so sending file after file seems inconsiderate. Which I know you'd say if you were too busy but I can't help feeling that way, like you should be doing something fun and not checking over yet another version of my story.

Posting in a locked post helps me a lot as like you I catch more things that way, maybe because I've moved from being the writer to a reader, and in doing that get fresh eyes that catch more.

Yeah, I know I could work on it I just don't know what to add. Which sounds silly after what I said in the post but I just got the feeling it could be more you know?

Which probably ties in with all the thoughts about my writing I've had lately, about POV and tense and stuff like that. I'm not putting myself down, honest, but I just want to get better.

You've hit the nail on the head about preview readers. I wish I could be self supporting too but I can't. I need that interaction, which is partially a confidence thing, someone to say I'm not on crack with what I'm writing. I really do want to break the write/post habit because I know it's a bad thing. I also want to get that long story out of my head. Which has no plot or anything but I know it's there *g*

Crit makes me happy too, I know getting it from some awesome people has helped me improve a lot. And you know I'm always pleased to read anything you throw my way. It's a pleasure to do so.

*smooches you*

Thank you for your thoughtful answers.

[ihearthings-ii.livejournal.com]

and also, I just get frustrated when things don't go as I want them to, and then just leave stories like that, because I don't have the patience to sit down and untangle them. *kicks brain*

[turps33.livejournal.com]

Hey, repeat away. Maybe I'll take it in then ;)

I like the way you change things on the beta file and I'm going to try that next time.

I hate when you find those damn typos. I'm sure they hide all the time.

Your stuff is lovely and you shouldn't be embarrassed. Maybe it could be more but it doesn't mean what you have isn't good to read. I know I always enjoy your writing. *cough/puppets/cough*

[http://users.livejournal.com/_bettina_/]

I like the way you change things on the beta file and I'm going to try that next time.

It's easier that way for me and I still can check with my original file when I'm confused about something.

Typos happen all the time, most of the time you don't register they are there. The eye sees the word, sees the right length, the right letters, and the brain says, "hey, everything fits, it must be correct" or something like that ;-).

Thanks! I just shouldn't compare my writing with other people's writing. And yeah, puppet!Chris will get finished after my exam! Whee.

Re: why not my 2 cents?

[turps33.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you honey. Your comments mean a lot.

Thanks for your beta thoughts too. I've got into a habit of staying within one POV which I really should break as it tends to be limiting. I really need to try and do a multiple POV story soon.

[turps33.livejournal.com]

I remember watching you beta for A at sesa time on the last night and was amazed at how much you put into it. I'm blown away that you were doing it with other people too. Wow.

That's a great rule. I'm sitting on the story I wrote for Lambs day now. I had to post it there obviously but it's not at my site and I didn't announce it on Shiny and New, mainly because I still don't like it that much.

Taking you at your word you really do like beta reading would you take a look? There's no time limit at all, changing things is for my own satisfaction really at this point. Man, I always feel like a cheeky cow asking.

[nopseud]

I'm blown away that you were doing it with other people too.

Heh. It was a fun night.

Taking you at your word you really do like beta reading would you take a look?

Sure! I'm always happy to look at things for you (although I'd rather beta stories with happy endings, just because I like happy endings, :-) and likewise I'm not so keen on AUs).

[nopseud]

The only thing that I can't handle, and I don't know if it's a dyslexia thing or a control freak thing, or actually totaly reasonable, is people who edit by making changed but not telling you what they are.

Wow. I'd never do that. Mostly, I guess, because I assume that people won't be using the file I send back as the story file and they'll be copying the changes into another file, so if I don't make a note they won't know to do it. But, also, I'd feel like I was being too pushy, even when it's something very technical. Or at the least, I'd ask before I did anything like that.

So, I think you're being pretty reasonable.

[turps33.livejournal.com]

Heh. It was a fun night.

I think I'm scared at your idea of fun ;)

As for the story it's not an AU so don't worry and it did have a happy ending.

I'll e mail you, thank you.